Re: Seamaster and Iago's endless rehashing Bond thread

**Iago** Tue Jan 17, 2012 12:14 pm

Can you repeat that one more time?

**Seamaster** Tue Jan 17, 2012 1:55 pm

You first.

**Iago** Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:01 pm

**Seamaster** Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:14 am

What was that?

**Iago** Wed Jan 18, 2012 11:03 am

(O.K., so I was trying to find a clip of Snerd's classic "Uh, what was the question?" but this was the best that I could do.)

**Seamaster** Wed Jan 18, 2012 2:30 pm

Totally unrelated, but I felt the need to share this:

**Iago** Wed Jan 18, 2012 3:27 pm

Awesome!

That reminds me (and it is related, though that will only make sense if you have seen the film) have you seen the movie Hannah? I cannot remember if we already talked about it.

**Seamaster** Wed Jan 18, 2012 4:10 pm

We talked about Hanna, but I have yet to see the film.

**Iago** Wed Jan 18, 2012 4:59 pm

Well, there is a pretty interesting tooth brushing scene that seemed a little odd until I listened to the commentary track with director Joe Wright and he gave a pretty simple explanation for it, and admitted that most people would never figure out why. If you ever watch it, tell me what you think.

Did you watch Warrior?

**Seamaster** Thu Jan 19, 2012 10:03 am

I bought Warrior, but I need to sit down to watch it. I had two fight movies sitting and asking to be watched: Warrior and The Fighter. I watched the latter.

**Iago** Thu Jan 19, 2012 12:41 pm

Nothing wrong with The Fighter! It is a better movie overall than Warrior, but it sets a high standard. With The Fighter, The Wrestler, Million Dollar Baby, Rocky Balboa and now The Warrior, we have had a pretty good run of fight movies in the past few years.

The source for this story is The Guardian, so take it with however many grains of salt that you wish, but:

http://news.moviefone.com/2012/01/19/skyfall_n_1216080.html

**Seamaster** Thu Jan 19, 2012 3:23 pm

I always take editorials containing typos with a grain of salt.

Regarding Rocky, I still prefer the '76 original, though the latest was quite good. And, yes, I thought The Fighter was very good. Wahlberg was obviously in good shape for the movie, but I was most impressed with Bale. The things he does to his body for the sake of the big screen!

**Iago** Thu Jan 19, 2012 5:15 pm

I will be very curious to see what kind of condition Bale is in for The Dark Knight Rises. But if you want to talk about real chameleons in The Fighter, Academy Award-winner Melissa Leo (Wahlberg's mother) was also Kate Winslet's next door neighbor in Mildred Pierce.

I freely acknowledge that the original Rocky is the best of the films, and Rocky III is probably the most entertaining, but Rocky Balboa has become my favorite. It appeals to me thematically more than any of the others, including the original. And I love the way the final fight parallels the fight in the the first film; Rocky loses in a split decision, but wins a moral victory by making it to the end of the fight. It resonates even more than it did in the first one because clearly Rocky does not care if he wins or loses -- I love the fact that he exits the ring and heads out of the auditorium before the decision is even announced. He is content that he put in a good showing and purged his demons in the process.

**Seamaster** Fri Jan 20, 2012 10:30 am

My problem with Rocky Balboa is just that: His motivation is confused, it lacks continuity with the previous films (except for where it copies the template of the original) and I just don't believe in his character as much as I did in the '76 original. I also find the whole fight set up to parallel that of a circus. Again, it's not believable, and even less so than previous Rocky films, which is hard to imagine. That said, and when I forget about those things, I quite enjoy the movie. Redemption stories are always fun and as I find myself slowing down, I can relate to that side of the Rocky character. I also have great respect for Stallone and what he did to train for that movie. Another thing I enjoyed with the film is something you allude to: Rocky has lost the chip on his shoulder, even though he is clearly harbouring a number of other regrets. The films captures despair well.

So, I like the film, but I find it too flawed to eclipse the '76 original as my favourite of the series.

**Iago** Fri Jan 20, 2012 3:32 pm

Personally, I think that his motivation is even clearer in Balboa. The thing that is trickier about it is that even he does not really understand why he is doing it -- as is clear in his discussions with his son and with Paulie. The whole film is about letting go of the past and moving on with your life, and Rocky's unarticulated need is to give up living in the past. You see that clearly at the beginning when he is visiting Adrian's grave, as well as in his club when he is obviously repeating the same old stories over and over again (and his customers know it.) You also see it in the scene where he takes Paulie to all of the locations where he had major memories of Adrian -- even Paulie eventually tells Rocky, "I cant do this no more!" (Especially interesting given that the reason why it bothers Paulie so much is that is own memories are of how he mistreated Adrian, so he hates having to relive the past.) Rocky himself does not understand it, but the reason he wants to fight again is to provide some closure for himself. While he does not understand the reasons, he accepts the results, which is why he leaves the ring at the end before the decision. He already accomplished what he set out to accomplish.

There is a wonderful parallel structure to the opening and the closing of the film. At the beginning, Rocky is going to Adrian's grave every day (hence the folding chair he keeps up in a nearby tree)while essentially wearing the same outfit he wore decades ago, even the same coat. At the end, you can clearly see that he is going to the grave to tell Adrian that he is moving on -- and it is not insignificant that for the first time in the movie he is wearing a new outfit and a different jacket. He does not need the chair anymore because he does not intend to come back every day anymore.

I also think that the movie does do a good job of setting up the fight by making it clear from the start that no one is taking the champion seriously anymore due to the low caliber of his opponents, and that is really burning him up inside. So when the computer simulation picks Rocky as the winner of the hypothetical fight, his pride has already been stinging so the computer fight is the last straw for him. The thing that I really like about that is that it is the first film in the entire series where Rocky's opponent is not the "villian." The champion is not a one-note heavy, but a man who has problems of his own that the fight provides a solution for.

I should make it clear that none of that really stood out to me on a first viewing. The first time that I saw it, I just thought that it was surprisingly good for a late entry, but not in the caliber of the original (or even the third one.) It is only after multiple viewings that I have come to appreciate that there is a bit more depth to the film than meets the eye. The series has always been a fairly personal one for Stallone and I think that it really shows in the script for this one -- it was as much about Stallone purging the demons of his past success as it was about Rocky doing the same.

The standard training montage in Balboa is also my favorite in the series, mostly because it follows through on Tony Burton's lecture about all of Rocky's issues due to his age, and that the only chance they have is raw power -- "Let's build some hurtin' bombs." Much of the training in the montage is exactly that, power-related. I also like the fight choreography in it better than any of the rest, if only because Stallone insisted that they really hit each other -- if a blow missed, he refused to add a sound effect like it actually hit. (The scene where he goes down and flails at the rope really happened -- he took a shot that dazed him.)

None of which changes the fact that the first one is a better film overall. But all of these factors make me prefer the last one, despite its flaws (which are indeed numerous.)

**Seamaster** Mon Jan 23, 2012 11:42 am

I don't really disagree with anything you've said, but I found the idea better than the execution. The film, itself, is not presented as eloquently as you have articulated. In short, I feel the execution falls flat. And I think you either have to buy into the premise of the movie (for both boxers) or not. That said, I will have to rewatch the film with fresh eyes.

Interestingly, the one thing that spoke to me in the film was Rocky's relationship with Adrian. I found his commitment to Adrian and her memory rather endearing. I know a few people criticized this part of the film, but it worked for me. Perhaps I'm a bit soft.

Incidentally, regarding the training, I believe Stallone juiced up for this and the Rambo remake. So, while he's in impressive shape for being 60, I suppose we should keep in mind that it wasn't entirely natural!

**Iago** Mon Jan 23, 2012 1:29 pm

Oh, he did -- he was "busted" at the time of Rambo for bringing human growth hormones into the country. I was not talking about his actual condition as much as I was the training that they do as being appropriate for his age and the strategy that they needed to win, or at least compete in the fight. All of the kettle balls, barrel throws, etc. were what he would have needed. Most of the training montages simply show "cool" or otherwise visually impressive things to make him look hard core, but do not necessarily reflect what he really would need to do to win. (I cannot remember the montage in Rocky III, but it should have shown him doing nothing but situps as his strategy a la Ali vs. Foreman was to protect his head and let Mr. T wear himself out pounding on Rocky's stomach.)

**Seamaster** Mon Jan 23, 2012 4:40 pm

I knew what you meant regarding the training. I was just making a comment about Stallone in general and his real-life training.

Incidentally, even though the movie is pure spectacle, I have a soft spot for Rocky IV because I have a Muscle and Fitness issue that features Stallone and Lundgren on the cover and a rather lengthy article on what they did to get in shape for the film. That issue was a source of inspiration for some time!

I believe the Rocky III montage has Creed training Rocky and teaching him footwork and proper boxing techniques over brawling, which makes sense.

**Iago** Tue Jan 24, 2012 3:38 am

I may not be remembering the stomach part accurately as I have not seen the movie in some time. It is true that Ali protected his head and let Foreman pound on his stomach, and his stomach was rock-hard at the time. While Stallone borrowed the overall structure of that fight for his fight with Mr. T, he may have just done the more "movie" thing and unrealistically let Mr. T hit him in the head instead of protecting it.

I was watching Bronson over the weekend and it does have a behind-the-scenes video showing Hardy doing some of his training for the film, including some of the exercises that were in the article that you showed. He had different trainers for Warrior, but they must have known about his training for Bronson and felt no need to change what worked!

**Seamaster** Tue Jan 24, 2012 9:51 am

I seem to recall the later Rocky films (now the middle ones, I suppose) devolving into Rocky getting beat up for the first few rounds, getting a lucky blow in around the fifth round, then brawling it out until the two last rounds, at which point he'd drop his guard and taunt his opponent into punching him in the face. Then, after surviving some crazy-wild haymakers, old Rock would deliver a pummeling of his own. Maybe Rocky III is better than that, and worth a rewatch. It might have only been Rocky IV that went down that road.

I'm convinced Hardy is genetically gifted when it comes to packing on muscle. The stars do have it easier than us from the aspect that they have access to the top trainers, can afford to train all day and at the times of day when our bodies growth-producing hormones are peaking, and can afford the best food and nutritional supplements. But Hardy seems to be able to pack on real, truly dense muscle. He doesn't at all look soft or model-like. He looks like a true warrior. Maybe there's something in the water that people like Hardy and Bale drink. Speaking of which, it'll be interesting to see how the two stack up stature-wise in Dark Knight. I did see Ghost Protocol, but it did not feature the prologue you mentioned. Perhaps the prologue was only offered during the opening week.

**Iago** Tue Jan 24, 2012 12:39 pm

Did you see it in a "real" Imax theatre as opposed to a digital Imax theatre? They only ran the promo in 42 theatres in North America.

**Seamaster** Tue Jan 24, 2012 1:18 pm

No, I didn't realize it was an Imax-only showing. Ah well, it's a total pain the ass to get to that theatre at which I suspect it's showing. Parking is a nightmare.

**Iago** Tue Jan 24, 2012 5:50 pm

We drove an hour and a half and had a fun time parking. It was worth it.

**Seamaster** Thu Jan 26, 2012 4:22 pm

I deal with rush hour nearly every day -- in the morning and evening. I try to avoid traffic jams as much as possible.

**Iago** Fri Jan 27, 2012 8:48 am

I drive all day every day during the week, so I certainly understand the sentiment. I used to drive down to the Twin Cities every weekend to see a movie and hit a favorite restaurant, but lately it has been no more than once or twice a month -- if that. I get tired of being in a car. That said, it was tough to pass up the chance to catch the prologue in the Imax format -- and seeing Ghost Protocol in Imax was certainly a bonus!

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