Re: The spoiler-filled, enter at your own risk, we mean it now, Dark Knight Rises thread

**Seamaster** Fri Oct 05, 2012 10:28 am

Thanks. I will get around to picking up Volume 4.

**Iago** Fri Oct 05, 2012 10:39 am

Did you ever grab "Vengeance of Bane'?

**Seamaster** Fri Oct 05, 2012 3:24 pm

If that is told in Batman versus Bane, then, yes. I picked up the book, but I haven't read it yet. I need to spend some time with course reading, so it will have to sit in my To Read pile for a week or two until I get caught up.

**Iago** Sun Oct 07, 2012 4:09 am

Ah, yes, I keep calling the whole collection "Vengeance of Bane" when that is just a part of "Batman vs. Bane." Old age. I did look up the episode that I mentioned in the Volume 4 set and it is titled "Legends of the Dark Knight." Very good episode. They liked the story idea so much that they did something similar in the DTV Batman: Gotham Knights.

**Seamaster** Tue Oct 09, 2012 5:01 pm

I haven't gotten around to picking up Volume 4 yet, but it's on my list for the next time I go shopping.

**Iago** Wed Oct 10, 2012 11:09 am

I am curious to hear what you think. I doubt that you will care for the redesigns any more than I did, but the question is if you will be able to look beyond that to the overall quality of the episodes. It is pretty jarring. But do pick up The Dark Knight Returns while you are at it.

**Seamaster** Wed Oct 10, 2012 1:42 pm

I can look past the design, although it might take a while -- the film noir aspect of Season 1 really grew on me. It's one of my favourite things about Volumes 1 through 3 of BTAS.

I had heard that the content also wasn't as good in Volume 4 (or Season 2), but I trust what you're saying: there are a few gems that make it worth the price of entry. I'll give it a shot.

**Iago** Thu Oct 11, 2012 6:52 am

Well, none of the seasons are perfect. Season one has some of the best episodes of the entire series, but a few of the worst as well. The final season does push into fantasy territory a bit more often than the rest of the series, but nothing out of line with the comics. I think that many people did not like the fact that they moved Dick Greyson into Nightwing, and brought on Tim Drake, but again that is hardly out of line with the comics. Their version of Drake is even younger, but it still works O.K. (Actually, their version of Drake is a bit of a cross between Drake and Jason Todd.) The designs are not exactly non-noir, but they are graphically simplified and streamlined. That said, at least a few of the redesigns are improvements, such as The Scarecrow, whose older design was one that the overseas animation could never quite follow the model correctly. Mixed feelings about Catwoman, whose design is improved in that she has the girlish quality lacking from the older one, and Adrienne Barbeau still voices it, so there you go. One major loss is that Melissa Gilbert no longer voices Barbara Gordon/Batgirl, and while Tara Strong is fine she is not the equal of Gilbert. They did opt for the red sky that they used during the original opening credits teaser, and that does detract from the noir look. The one that bothers me the most is The Joker, whose redesign just does not work for me.

But, as with all seasons you take the bad with the good. The episodes that I mentioned are very strong, and there are a few others. By the way, if you are still picking up books, I recommend the one-shot "Mad Love" that they adapted for season 4. It was written by Paul Dini (and he wrote the script for the episode as well) and it does a fantastic job of telling Harley Quinn's origin story, and explaining the sadomasochistic relationship between the two.

**Seamaster** Thu Oct 11, 2012 3:43 pm

S&M in comic books. This ain't a kid's tale!

Thanks for the overview. If nothing else, it will be interesting to compare the seasons. As you said, there will be good and bad in both.

**Iago** Fri Oct 12, 2012 9:27 am

Well, all kidding aside, sadomasochism in a relationship is not exactly the same thing as S&M! But it does explain the Joker/Harley relationship perfectly; he treats her like absolute dirt and she crawls to him looking for more. The key scene with that from an earlier season was in "Harley's Holiday" when Batman springs Quinn to go with him and help track down the Joker. At the end, it finallly dawns on Harley that the Joker's scheme to blow up Gotham did not include helping her escape the carnage, so she gets angry and pulls a gun on him -- and fires, only to find out that it was a "joke" gun, not a real one. The Joker is momentarily furious with her that she would have really killed him -- but then loves that thought so much that he says, "Baby, you're the best" and she jumps into his arms.

Even in "Harley and Ivy," when she has finally had enough of him and goes out on her own, she is still pining for him at the end, much to Ivy's disgust.

**Seamaster** Fri Oct 12, 2012 3:08 pm

Sadomasochism in a relationship is worse than S&M. The former is chronic!

**Iago** Sat Oct 13, 2012 7:55 pm

All this talk about Harley Quinn is making me think of doing a marathon session of just her key episodes such as "Harley and Ivy," "Harley's Holiday," "Harlequinade," and "Mad Love." I would probably include "The Man Who Killed Batman" as well just for the astounding funeral sequence where she plays Amazing Grace on a kazoo. (Incidentally, voice actor Arleen Sorkin actually did play the kazoo herself for that sequence. They gave it to her to see what would happen and they were only able to complete one take as everyone broke out laughing when she was done.)

**Seamaster** Mon Oct 15, 2012 11:34 am

Nice. I did not know that.

**Iago** Mon Oct 15, 2012 12:54 pm

It is of course Sorkin herself doing the singing on the torch song that she sings in another episode ("Harlequinade"?) -- no one could imitate her voice! But it is rare for the voice actress to perform and instrumental piece that would normally be added during the scoring, not the voice recording. But she has such a handle on that character (she deserves just as much credit as Dini or Timm for the creation of the character) that only she could have done it like Harely would have.

By the way, many of the recording sessions on the series were done with ensembles of the cast, rather than everyone voicing their own parts individually. That is not always possible, of course, but they did it when they could because voice director Andrea Romano preferred to have the interplay between the actors. Even some of the actors voicing multiple characters acted against themselves -- in the episode "Dreams in Darkness," Kevin Conroy voiced Bruce Wayne, Batman, Thomas Wayne, alternate Bruce Wayne and alternate Batman, all in real time, switching back and forth on the fly.

**Iago** Thu Nov 08, 2012 6:08 pm

By the way, Warner Brothers just announced that part 2 of The Dark Knight Returns is going to come out in January of next year, not the fall, so no reason to delay picking up part 1. Given the frequency with which Warners releases new DC Animated Universe titles, I was a bit skeptical that it was going to take a whole year. Looking forward to part 2!

**Seamaster** Fri Nov 09, 2012 3:36 pm

I've still to pick up Part 1, but I will keep my eyes open for it when I am out this evening.

**Iago** Thu Dec 13, 2012 5:11 pm

Not sure if you picked up the disc for The Dark Knight Rises yet, but it has one of the best special features that I have seen in a long time: an hour-long look at all of the Batmobiles over the years. It really is comprehensive, too, as it includes not just the feature films but also looks at the classic George Barris Batmobile from the TV series, the old serial, the comic books and the various animated incarnations (even The Superfriends!) While I have always preferred the Burton Batmobile to the two Schumacher versions (Batman Forever & Batman and Robin, there is no denying that the latter two were pretty striking in their own way, and after watching how they were built, they were pretty impressive feats of engineering, too. Obviously the feature spends the most time looking at the Tumbler, and while I know that you have never been too fond of that design, you will still probably be impressed by how they conceived and built it. (Among other things, they did no conceptual artwork, but went straight to kit-bashing real models together until they came up with something that they liked.) Also, while I know that it does not look like the design should be very agile, there is a pretty amazing footage of them testing the thing where a driver literally turns it on a dime -- he points the nose at a construction cone, floors it and literally spins around that point.

**Seamaster** Thu Dec 13, 2012 5:15 pm

I did pick up the disk, but haven't gotten around to watching it yet.

I have to confess that the Tumbler design has grown on me and your description of its handling has increased my impression. I also like the Burton design, but aren't those Batmobiles basically a kit slapped on a Corvette? Regardless, I look forward to checking out the extra. Thanks for mentioning.

**Iago** Fri Dec 14, 2012 3:34 am

I was referrring to the design of the Burton vehicle more than the construction, but some of those earlier cars may surprise you. For instance, the car in Batman and Robin was so long that they had to scratch-build the chassis (and there is cool footage of them taking the chassis for a test-spin.) The Tumbler, of course, was scratch built. The cool thing about the engineering of that one is that they made it a working vehicle that could perform all the stunt work; with the previous cars, there was the "beauty" version for close-up work that was too delicate for any kind of real driving, so they built seperate, more durable "stunt" cars. But with the Tumbler, the main car was able to perform all the action -- though there was a seperate version with a fully-dressed interior cockpit and working doors; the driveable car had a more pragmatic interior.

I have been watching the special features on the Dark Knight Rises but have yet to watch the main movie; I am trying to figure out how to talk Eve into watching it with me. She has a hard time with suspense in general and Chrisopher Nolan movies really get to her -- she closed her eyes during the prologue when it played before Mission Impossible: Ghost Protocol. The only way that she survived Inception was because I told her up front that no one really dies and everything happens in a dream state. 'Fraid that one or two people DO get killed in Rises!

**Seamaster** Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:23 pm

Having said that, I don't recall Rises being too graphic, or is my short-term memory shot? I also picked up the disc and I'm debating whether I watch it alone or with others. While I can recall the story quite clearly, I'm having a hard time remembering the details, particularly related to graphic violence. Perhaps I'm too desensitized.

**Iago** Fri Dec 14, 2012 1:35 pm

It has nothing to do with how graphic the violence is; she just cannot handle too much suspense and people being killed, on screen or off. We have watched movies where she loved it all the way through until one character is killed at the end, and that ruined the movie for her. She loved the Coen Brothers remake of True Grit until the horse dies near the end and now that is all she can talk about in reference to the movie. No kidding.

**Seamaster** Sun Dec 16, 2012 10:14 pm

Maybe talking Eve into watching Rises isn't such a good idea. How did she do with the first two Nolan Batman movies?

**Iago** Mon Dec 17, 2012 12:06 pm

She closed her eyes a lot, hence my hesitation! She would like a lot of it, though, especially Anne Hathaway's version of Catwoman. I can see her getting really into Bruce Wayne's recovery and triumph over his injury when he escapes from the pit. But the ending would probably do her in, though she would likely go for the interpretation that Batman did indeed survive. I would just have to avoid sharing my interpretation!

The classic example of what I was talking about with True Grit would be the anime series Cowboy Bebop. She watched the entire series with me and loved it, right up until the main character dies at the end of the final episode. (Spoiler alert, I suppose, but I highly doubt that you would ever watch it!) The series runs for 26 half-hour episodes, and literally all that she remembers about it now is the last five minutes of the final episode.

**Seamaster** Mon Dec 17, 2012 6:09 pm

Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid and Thelma and Louise, among others, obviously do not make Eve's Top Film list.

**Iago** Tue Dec 18, 2012 6:29 am

Actually, she loved Thelma and Louise -- she just refuses to watch it again!

She is a big Paul Thomas Anderson fan, at least his earlier movies Boogie Nights, Magnolia and Punch Drunk Love. I have been trying to get her to watch There Will Be Blood, but so far she has refused simply because of the title. I have tried to convince her that it has less blood than Boogie Nights did (which has at least three bloody shootings,) but the catch is that the only notable death in the entire movie is one of the main characters in the very last scene. In that case, despite the total quantity of violence being lower than Boogie Nights, she will nevertheless only remember that final scene and hate the movie because of it.

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